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Talk:Combat
Combat (Mass Effect 2) Should this new page be made or should ME2 info go in this page as well? I'm in favour of the former, otherwise this page will get cluttered. Random bits of ME2 info interspersed in what is essentially a ME1 page is not conducive. Dch2404 10:52, February 19, 2010 (UTC) * I support 2 different pages for most content as so much is different between ME1 and ME2. Servius 13:35, February 19, 2010 (UTC) ::There is ongoing discussion of this subject on Forum:ME1 and ME2. Note too that waiting an hour before splitting is probably (much) too short an interval to get meaningful feedback. This wiki has contributors from multiple time zones. --DRY 20:29, February 19, 2010 (UTC) Given that the apparent consensus was to split on a page by page basis, I support splitting the Combat article. Combat has changed signfiicantly enough between ME and ME2 to warrant a new article, given the fact that nearly all the mechanics were redone or replaced. UERD 08:24, March 11, 2010 (UTC) : I'd like to add that the page, as it currently stands, is a mess :(. The difficulty level section mixes in ME-exclusive info (e.g. 'have to unlock Hardcore and Insanity modes', 'get an achievement for completing Hardcore') and ME2 info ('get the Geth Pulse Rifle on Hardcore') with absolutely no distinction. About 90% of the content here applies to ME, and ME only. UERD 08:37, March 11, 2010 (UTC) Overheat Bug Can we get confirmation that the overheat bug only applies to cracked copies of ME? --Tullis 15:16, November 23, 2009 (UTC) :No. It also appears on legal copies - it's a bug in the user profile that can be a result of unplanned behavior (currently, the reason is unknown). --silverstrike 18:31, November 29, 2009 (UTC) Weapon Heat and Accuracy Regarding the new addition to the Weapon Heat section of the article, I don't see the connection between the weapon built-up, and the loss of accuracy. Accuracy is the result of mastering a weapon and countering its repulsion. Heat is the result of friction building up, and consequentially, jamming of the weapon. --silverstrike 18:31, November 29, 2009 (UTC) Heat Buildup / Absorption / Dampening The Heat Buildup / Absorbtion / Dampening section needs looking at. I've been making a mod that replicates ME1's weapons behaviour in ME2 and it became obvious rather quickly that the info stated is not correct or does not apply to Mass Effect for PC version 1.02 (Steam). My own observations based on 60fps video capture with FRAPS would suggest the following: The heat bar consists of 25 segments with 5 shades from clear to bright red appearing in each segment, this means the heat bar can display up to 125 different states or for the purposes of this discussion I'll assume values of 0-124 or 1-125 which I will call points. The game dissipates heat at a rate of 1 point per 1/30th of a second or it may be 1 point per engine tick (Default tickrate in Unreal Engine 3 which Mass Effect is based on is 30 per second). Doing the math and comparing to several video captures it is very clear that ALL weapons lose heat at the same rate of 30 points per second meaning from maximum to minimum on the heat bar it takes 4.16 seconds. Weapons cooling down from overheat however take 50% longer. 6.24 seconds which is consistent with the 6.23 seconds in my vid cap. Weapon mods and abilities do not affect these rates so far as I can tell (checked with Scram Rails, Frictionless Materials, Maxed-out Assault Rifle Skills etc...) In summary, the section has got the following points wrong: It speculates by saying "it can be assumed" that all weapons will tolerate "150 heat" but doesn't say where that figure comes from? It states that the rate of dissipation is 30 "heat" per second which seems correct, however it states that this rate can be altered with mods or abilities, this does not appear to be the case. It claims that weapon heat affects weapon accuracy, however weapon configurations that produce no heat still grow inaccurate while firing. None of the descriptions for heat reducing mods mention any relation to accuracy and the game has an entirely separate line of weapon mods dealing with it (Accuracy/Stability). 18:39, February 6, 2010 (UTC) Heat Mechanics OK, found a nifty set of tools today that let me examine Mass Effect's 2DA tables and I made a few discoveries that will warrant a change to the Heat Mechanics section that I revised previously. The game stores the heat value in a variable that ranges from 0.0f to 1.0f. Heat dispersion occurs at a rate of 0.24 per second for all weapons at Level 1 up to 0.33 per second at Level 10. All weapons have a maximum heat of 1.0. Overheat dispersion values are also defined for weapons at Level 1 to be 0.16 per second up to 0.25 at Level 10. Both rates increase at an increment of 0.01 per level. 07:38, February 7, 2010 (UTC) Heat Generation Can't we assume that the "heat generation" and "shots before overheat" values are either the same or based on the same thing? Because from what I can see +500% heat generation would be just dividing the shots before overheat by 5. Or should I just remove the third bullet point? [[User:PX173|''PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7'' 06:32, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :I really can't say for certain, but they could be based on different things as shots before overheat is a set number, while heat generation can vary. I would say that for now leaving it in is the best optino. Lancer1289 06:41, April 22, 2011 (UTC) ::I don't see how shots before overheat can be set whilst how heat generation can vary. They are directly related. Like I said, if the heat generation were to increase to 500%, the shots before overheat would divide by 5. Technically it's just paraphrasing. [[User:PX173|PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7'' 08:45, April 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Okay, hold on. I just reread that section. How can you possibly assume that shots before overheat and heat generation are not the same values, only paraphrased? Both heat generation and shots before overheat vary by weapon. I'll be removing that section unless anybody else can object that shots before overheat and heat generation are not different values. ::Think of it this way, really. You have a 30-round magazine. You have a special bullet that takes up the space of 5 ordinary ones. The literal size of the magazine will not change but since shots before overheat is counted in single units the size would reduce down to 6 rounds. [[User:PX173|PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7'' 08:54, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :::Yeah I have readded the section as I'm not satisfied one bit with the reason for its removal. You have no proof that they are the same and you are using a comparison that we can't even assure its accuracy. You need a source that says they are the same thing, and then you might have a case, but right now the article reflects what we know, and this is completely unconfirmed based solely on your guesses how gameplay works by comparing it to something that I can't even say that it is a valid comparison. To justify removal of that information, you need more than that. Lancer1289 15:41, April 22, 2011 (UTC) ::::Can you justify that they're different, either? Solely from the fact that they have different names that basically imply the same thing? That we can't take the name "shots before overheat" literally? [[User:PX173|PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7'' 05:43, April 23, 2011 (UTC) ::::To add more, the statement that heat generation is a separate value is a guess as well. [[User:PX173|PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7'' 05:45, April 23, 2011 (UTC) :::::First question: Since you have a problem with it, the burden of proof in on you. As to whether they are different, shots before overheat and heat generation are not the same thing. The number doesn't change if you add mods to it and is a set number based on standard shooting. Heat generation modifies the number so they are different things. :::::Second question: They do not imply the same thing. Heat generation and shots before overheat are two very different things. :::::Third question: We can take it literally, but it will be modified by different weapon mods. The inital number doesn't change, but is in fact modified by heat generation, which means they aren't the same thing. :::::Final thing: again the burden of proof is on you as the current version has more support for keeping rather than removing. While it is a guess, it has more support than your evidence that they are the same thing. Lancer1289 05:49, April 23, 2011 (UTC) ::::::Again, my analogy. Shots before overheat, logically, would be the amount of shots you could get out of a magazine. Suppose that your gun fires 5 bullets per shot. Originally, the magazine held around 30 shots, but since you modified your weapon to take five times the usual amount of bullets the value would be divided by five, and therefore the amount of bullets fired per shot (heat generation) would only be as different as the number of shots (shots before overheat) as much as multiplication and division. Two different things, yes, but essentially the inverse of each other. They are inversely proportional. If you have one, you can get the other, and if you change one, you can change the other. We're not even sure if heat generation in itself is a value, since you'd more or less rather put in a description "+500% Heat Generation" rather than "Shots Before Overheat divided by 5". But going back to my analogy, the outcome would depend on the circumstances: if you see shots before overheat as the volume of the magazine, then it's fixed; if you see it as the number of rounds in a magazine, then it's variable. Unless we can determine which we'd probably get nowhere far, amongst other options which would seem to be more extensive debate. [[User:PX173|PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7'' 08:18, April 23, 2011 (UTC) :Except that modification =/= the same thing, which is what you are arguing. Proportional also =/= the same thing. There are so many variables that there are so many thing that one can easily say that one thing affects the other. You are assuming a lot, but at the same time generation and shots are different variables because of what they are working with. Lancer1289 16:52, April 23, 2011 (UTC) ::If I know my math, we have the constant, which is 500. I assume that one value is all we need to get the other. Have you ever seen any other modification that references the shots before overheat value? Like I said, all value references for weapon mods are in percentage, and as far as I know it would be less confusing to put +500% of the same thing rather than divide it by 5 or 6. And there is quite a chance that they are the same thing and the only evidence I see supporting otherwise is conjecture, or at least can possibly be mostly disproved. [[User:PX173|PX]][[User_talk:PX173|''1]]7 06:24, April 24, 2011 (UTC) Health Does anyone know how many health points and shield points Shepard begins with by default? It would be good to add these stats into the page, after the model of the Combat page for Mass Effect 2.